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How to tell an ESTP from an ENTP


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#1 INFPGuest

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 12:59 PM

Hi ENTPs :D
I was wondering if you could help this INFP find ways to tell (from the outside) and ENTP from an ESTP.

I find the descriptions of the two types to be exceedingly alike. I know someone whom I vacilated back and forth between ESTP and ENTP in trying to figure out his type. I read every ENTP and ESTP description I could get my hands on.

Here are two from Keirsy.com

http://keirsey.com/p...ality/ntep.html
http://keirsey.com/p...ality/spet.html

Now, this guy is very outgoing, is very good with people, loves to have the "Cadillac" of everything, especially techinical things. He can be very smooth, but very "tough". He had all of the things of both of the ESTP and ENTP types. Just name something you think is ESTP behavoir (this is behavoir observed from the outside) and I swear an ENTP can appear to be just like it. (or this one did)

I finally decided on ENTP because his language could be rather "disjointed". He connected dots, making leaps that could confuse the hell out of you. I found I would have to say "how did you get from A to Z?" He would also assume that you had made the connect with him. I saw this as an ENTP type of behavoir. I assumed an ESTP would not make such leaps.

He would also get rather "spacey" and forget appointments and other such mundane things. I assumed an ESTP would not. Maybe an ESTP would not go to an appointment because he didn't want to, but not totally forget about it (especially and important one). I thought I was spacey as an INFP, but this guy was worse.

Also, he was terrible at knowing where he was at. He was constantly calling his ESFJ secretary on his cell (which was glued to his ear) to get him "unlost". When I had to go with him somewhere, I specifically took on the role of the S person and made sure that I knew where a place was. Sometimes this didn't work and we would both be lost. But thanks to his trusty secretary we would find whatever place. I assume an S and mainly an ESTP would not get lost like this.

So these are the reasons from viewing on the outside that I finally determined he was ENTP. Afterwards, I had an opportunity to introduce MBTI and give him the test and he tested as ENTP.

But there are so many commonalities between ENTP and ESTP you just can't tell from the descriptions. He is very good with S types. He can talk the S talk with SJs and SPs. He utilizes them to fill in the gaps (mainly keeping up with the details) that he has. But he is so clever at not diclosing this or disclosing that he even has gaps, that it took me a long time to figure this out. THis could be very analogous to an ESTP utilizing people for his own means. ESTPs supposedly are the master people manipulators. They play people like artists. Well, this ENTP could do the same.

I'll stop here. But I swear, it took me months and months of seeing this guy at work everyday to finally place him. And I pride myself on "type watching". I do it all of the time. Geeze! Any thoughts telling the difference between the two from an outsiders perspective?

Cindy
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#2 kerryo12

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 08:35 AM

The easiest way to tell S versus N - IMO - is by asking if they like rules. Most S types will like, or use, rules more than Ns. Of the four letters, the S is definitely the hardest to figure out, without handing them a test. Other things, like 'reading manuals' before using new products etc, could spell high J instead of S, but it may work too. Wanting to actually do the work versus thinking about how the work could be optimized, could also spell more S than N.
Good luck
Kerry
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#3 INFPGuest

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 09:22 AM

Thanks Kerry. Good stuff! :D

#4 JasonK

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 09:25 AM

I too have a very hard time. ETP is very easy to figure out. The S\N not so much. I'd like to hear more tricks to distinguish S from N. And I sometimes get S items confused with J items.

And also cause ENTPs are so different. I'll see an ENTP that is much different than me, know they are an ETP and so assume because they are so different they are ESTP.

Jason
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#5 jimbob

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:31 AM

Unfortunatly I think the ESTP is a type that realy rubs me up the wrong way.

I think a previous boss I had was one... He'd have been a stereotypical salesman, but was rubbish at dealing with a department full of XNTXs and XSTJs).

I think he was an ESTP rather than J as he seemed to start pointless projects then abandon them. (I'd prefer to start useful projects and then hand them over... :twisted: ).


I always thought that his motto was "bullshit baffles brains" (and he believed that.

It didn't baffle me, but*did* annoy me. I guess the BBB phrase is aimed at ISxJ's, where it might just work...

Still he did manage to achieve something: Everyone in the developmet group, and who delt with us were united in our assessment of his "value". :evil: (He also was in charge of some marketeers, who thought that he was great).

He reminded me of a stereotypical second-hand car salesman... always duckin' and divin' looking for a fresh angle on anything... but only immediately, no big-picture...

Initially we thought that he would make a good salesman, but then I remembered that if he told me the sun rose in the East, I'd have to check it up on google to confirm that the Earth hadn't started rotating backwards...

He was a very "forceful" "personality" (very agressive) especially if challenged... then watch your back.

Am I right in saying this is ESTP gone bad?

I was also reminded about
http://soli.inav.net...or/mbtihaha.htm
type description:

ESTP: "Beer Drinker"
Loud, crude, plays team sports, kisses and tells. These are the people beer commercials are made for.



The non-humerous description:

ESTP: "Promotor". Action! When present, things begin to happen. Fiercely competitive. Entrepreneur. Often uses shock effect to get attention. Negotiator par excellence. 13% of the total population.

ENTP: "Inventor". Enthusiastic interest in everything and always sensitive to possibilities. Non-conformist and innovative. 5% of the total population


Prayers of ENTP and ESTP (from same site)

ESTP: God, help me to take responsibility for my own actions, even though they're usually NOT my fault.

ENTP: Lord, help me follow established procedures today. On second thought, I'll settle for a few minutes.


or the illusions of the unhealthy types again from same site...

ESTP "I'm a stud and the world revolves around me"
ENTP "I can come up with a solution for anything"



BTW there is a good links list here:

http://soli.inav.net...pe/typesite.htm


Jim
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#6 INFPGuest

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Posted 19 July 2006 - 08:21 AM

I think he was an ESTP rather than J as he seemed to start pointless projects then abandon them. (I'd prefer to start useful projects and then hand them over... :twisted: ).



Initially we thought that he would make a good salesman, but then I remembered that if he told me the sun rose in the East, I'd have to check it up on google to confirm that the Earth hadn't started rotating backwards...

He was a very "forceful" "personality" (very agressive) especially if challenged... then watch your back.

Am I right in saying this is ESTP gone bad?


Very good stuff JimBob. These points still confuse me. My ENTP boss tended to come up with loads of projects and then abandon them. Would that make him ESTP?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean about having to check things. But if my ENTP boss said to do something, you did it, no matter how senseless it seemed. He did have a very "forceful personality", and yes, he talked a lot about people behind their backs. Does this mean he is really ESTP?

It's just sooo confusing. The types are just sooo close.

Cindy

#7 Me

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Posted 19 July 2006 - 08:44 AM

To tell you the truth he seems to have strong traits from each. I don't think the types are too close to tell, just that he is slap bang in the middle. He's ESNTP!
Reading it, however, with a perfect contempt for it, one discovers in it after all, a place for the genuine.
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#8 jimbob

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Posted 19 July 2006 - 11:19 AM

Very good stuff JimBob. These points still confuse me. My ENTP boss tended to come up with loads of projects and then abandon them. Would that make him ESTP?


The projects were tatically focussed, but there was no strategic point to them...

All was short-term (and BS)

Also, I'm not sure what you mean about having to check things.



I just meant that I didn't trust him... Think dodgy secondhand car salesman... "luverley motor, only one lady driver, she *loved* that car... As you look nice, I'll only charge twice what it's worth and I'm cutting my own throat... Done, you have been... Now how about buying the Eifel Tower, only $50K to you..."

Surely ENTPs aren't as bad?

It was the short-sightedness and the belief in his patter (Bullshit Baffles Brains)that convinces me

__edit_______

Also the humour and use of lauage:

I don't know if it is me, but Isuspect it is an "N" thing. I get aesthetic satisfaction by saying things in an oblique fashion, which I find more amusing when you work it out. (Choosing the precise word, with all its subtle gradations of meaning, including the humerous one...)


I imagine that ESTPs think the humour in birthday cards (you know, the ones with the *really obvious* punhlines) is is actually funny.

Checking out all the immediate angles, but missing a couple of steps...

PS. Did I say that I don't like many ESTPs?

Jim

#9 INFPGuest

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 11:33 AM

Yeah, Me. I think he must be an EXTP leaning toward the N side. That's why I sooo wish I could meet some true blue ENTPs. I've got to get to those comedy clubs. :wink:

And JimBob. There was an ESTP in my close circle of friends. And I didn't like him at all. I had a brother-in-law who was ESFP and he was tolerable.

What I find with SPs in general (the men) is that they are soooo sexually oriented. They find a whole lot of humour in sex crap. And they like talking about sex and making jokes about it. THis ESTP was no different.

What little I know about ENTPs and my boss (and I don't think it's just because he was at work) is that they don't really get into the sexual innuendo kinds of joking.

The ENTP sense of humour is much more intellegent. As a matter of fact, this ENTP boss would say things, that could have been interpreted as humour, but taken seriously (which I did) scared the crap out of me.

I always liked him, and was sorta crushed on him, but he just scared the crap out of me.

I don't think an ESTP boss would frighten me. I would just be very annoyed with him. But this guy's intellect was quite above my own, in a way. I felt as intelligent as him, but I had not developed his brand of intellect, and I could "feel" it. This is what frightened me. It would not have if he were not my boss. Bleh!

Now I'm writing like a total INFP. But anyway.

#10 jimbob

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 02:00 PM

What little I know about ENTPs and my boss (and I don't think it's just because he was at work) is that they don't really get into the sexual innuendo kinds of joking.

Get into... nudge nudge... Steady on there with your racy language...

The ENTP sense of humour is much more intellegent. As a matter of fact, this ENTP boss would say things, that could have been interpreted as humour, but taken seriously (which I did) scared the crap out of me.


I always like it if people aren't quite sure if I am joking... I also tend to analyse every situation via humour (no I won't restart the electrical puns again...) especially politics.

I knew some people who thought I was slow on the uptake because of what they thought I said (ambiguious words) those that had actually listened didn't.

I don't think an ESTP boss would frighten me. I would just be very annoyed with him. But this guy's intellect was quite above my own, in a way. I felt as intelligent as him, but I had not developed his brand of intellect, and I could "feel" it. This is what frightened me. It would not have if he were not my boss. Bleh!

Now I'm writing like a total INFP. But anyway.


What was frightening? Not being able to feel how he would analyse something? or not being able to feel how he got to the conclusions that he did? Or am I completely wrong here?

(Aside: Is it an NF to say "feel" in those above cases? I initially wrote "see" as I seem to have a visual not tactile vocabulary? Is this an NF/NT dichotomy, or am I reading too much into the chioice of one word?)


I sometimes get really impressed by the detail that INTPs can go ito, however, I can normally follow their thought proceses, even though I prefer the broarder approach...

My current boss is an ENT and when he started asking questions that were relevant after the pointless ESTP questions I had to stop and think "Whoooa... step up a couple of levels Jim and make *sure* you know what you are talking about"

It was a relief. I could see how that could turn into fear if you weren't strongly NTP.


Jim

#11 Functianalyst

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 10:07 AM

I wanted to revisit this thread, after doing quite a bit of study through some of the varied websites on getting your type correct. There is a good systematic way of determining ETP, based on temperament, interaction style and cognitive process. Just stating someone prefers sensing misses the whole point.

There are also some claims made here that are completely off base for ESTP. For one, ESPs are the least type to read a manual or instructions. The motto given by Otto Kroeger for ESTP is: β€œWhen all else fails, read the instructions.β€
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#12 SpiralHacker

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 09:35 PM

The first described person sounds more ESTP than ENTP to me.  Even if they're making jumps between concrete information, and providing details, regardless of how inaccurate they may be, they're working on the concrete level and not jumping to a more abstract discussion. The ENTP is apt to listen to all that, with the details glazing over them, and then jump to the ideas at play, disregarding discussion of details or specs.

 

Functianalyst is right that one of the easiest ways to distinguish between ESTP and ENTP is by looking from a temperaments angle.  The SP is more present-oriented, less serious, more into excitement, into adrenalin rushes, and seeking quick gains unlike the more long-term minded NT.  The SP will have elaborate ideas of concrete things, while the NT will present theoretical ideas.  The SP might get a thrill from personal tension whereas the NT dislikes it, preferring a calm or energetic approach.

 

If you see them fawning over gadgets, or computers with impressive stats, or cars and those sorts of things, then they are likely ESTP.  If they seem disinterested by such things or use them to spark conversation on the future of transportation, then it suggests ENTP.

 

If they try to impress you with how much they can bench, how many girls they laid, or other concrete things, then they're likely ESTP, but if they trying to impress you with their intellectual and especially theoretical achievements, then they're likely ENTP.

 

There are two major temperament systems.  I've found both of them to be reliable.  They have the same groupings.  The first is Keirsey's and the second is Berens/Nardi's.  I prefer the names of the Berens Model because they are more on key.  Keirsey calls the NTs Rationals, but many types can be rational, and he calls the NFs Idealists but many people of many types can be idealists.  At the same time I get where he's coming from, and he explains it in his book.  Keirsey looks at temperaments from one angle, using behavior and values, and Berens uses a more classically analytical psychology approach, which is similar to Jung's original approach.

 

Here's a map:

NT = Rational = Theorist

NF = Idealist = Catalyst

SJ = Guardian = Stabilizer

SP = Artisan = Improviser



#13 SpiralHacker

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:51 PM

It's true that some of these names throw people off.  Everyone has intuition, everyone has theories, everyone thinks and everyone feels.  It helps to remember the differences are actually concrete vs. abstract and personal vs. impersonal.

 

Be careful, though with that genius and intelligence association with intuitives.   The Dunning-Kruger effect is about how people with low intelligence and competence often over-estimate their abilities and those with high intelligence and competence under-estimate their abilities, but type does not have to do with these things.  There are many ESTPs who are more brilliant, creative and competent than many ENTPs.
 
ENTPs are not just smarter versions of ESTPs and NTs do not have a monopoly on the sciences and engineering.  We're different in the ways we think and in our values, but these differences simply mean that we bring different angles to the plate.  How well we do what we do and how intelligent we are will vary from person to person.
 
I've been going through David Hansson's blog.  He works at 37signals, created the Ruby on Rails platform, and is an ESTP.  He is intelligent, creative, competent, and a great programmer and businessman.  The ESTPs on celebritytypes.com example other intelligent ESTPs.  
 
One of my favorite business men is Warren Buffett, an ISTJ who may be far less risky than I am, but partly for that reason, has a lot to help me understand.  The best programmer after me at my last job was ESFJ, and this wasn't a trivial programming shop, our clients included Mercedes Benz, GM, Honda, and Toyota.  I'm now working at a Fortune 100 private company and I'm the only intuitive on my team of other competent programmers.  My ESFP friend got a job as a bio-engineer even before he graduated, and is now a manager at his company.

 

The examples of how much they can bench and girls they laid were more for typical people, and you aren't going to get those exact behaviors from intelligent ESTPs.  I was trying to convey patterns more than specifics, but even if the more intelligent ESTPs will be concrete whereas the ENTPs will be abstract.  An ENTP can be a complete idiot, with stupid ideas and pointless connections, but still, even in that case, will be more abstract than concrete and the ESTP will still like adrenalin rushes and be present-oriented and more concerned with immediate impact.


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#14 SpiralHacker

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:15 PM

ESTP vs ENTP in Film:  Tarantino vs. Aronofsky
 
Here's what I think is a good example from a field most can relate to, and using two very intelligent and creative people who are geniuses in their own rights.  Let's put the immature typical people aside for now.

 

Tarantino's works include Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill, and Django Unchained.  His type is ESTP.  Even if he isn't your cup of tea, this man is brilliant.  He has devoured the principles of many genres and many films and produces new material that synthesizes, bends, and toys with those principles alongside his own creations to create works with their own style in a manner that can't be taught and replicated easily with some book instructions.  I have a bachelor's in film and media studies.  He would've been one of the kids who took a class on every genre, every mode of storytelling, every tool of the trade, and then developed his own versions β€”  which is essentially what he did.  He truly lives up to the name of his temperament, the Improvisers.  His films are visceral, thrilling, and the dialog is direct, pointed, and yet clever.  His mis-en-scene, the elements within the frames o his films, are carefully crafted to set an incredible moment that is to be taken in within the present.  He expresses himself through his art, taking a lot from westerns and kung-fu films to create the kind of art that he loves.

 

Aranofsky is another brilliant film maker.  He is ENTP and his films include Pi, Requiem for a Dream, The Fountain, and Black Swan.  It film school he probably enjoyed the types of classes I really liked, that got into the cultural impacts on film, how film transforms culture and especially film theory.  Film theory looks into how a symbol is created, with discussions by great theorists like Eisenstein who noticed that Symbol A and Symbol B together create Symbol C; more than its parts, and Commoli who discussed how history is non-linear, and Bazin who thought realism was necessary to fight the propaganda nature of film.  It's the study of how Lacant's mirror theory works in film, how we relate to the person we're watching and how we project.  It's Metz's model of communication and how the object infers the idea, which is then interpreted to our own idea and then formed back into a concrete notion.  Aronfsky's mis-en-scene is to create a lasting environment to be studied, with the use of imagery like Coney Island with the assumption that you know or will know how Coney Island burned down with the people trapped on the rides.  He's using the elements of film and the medium to create a psychological and philosophical experience to navigate you through yourself and your ideas of the world.  His wrestler is perpetually out of breath, because life is a struggle, and he's not going to tell you that, he wants you to feel that on a deep level, and he's thinking of ways to get in your head and he is brilliant at bringing his explorations to you.

 

He also expresses his personality through his works, and they're a realm of abstract ideas, like what is our purpose, what are our weaknesses, what is beauty, what is strength, and what is the underlying nature of the world we live in?  How do we fit into it, how are transcendental, and how are we puppets of our circumstances and what are our options?  What makes us snap and why do we fear death?  What is the other way to look at it?  What is obsession?  What is its cost?  When is it good and when is it bad?

 

I enjoy Tarantino.  I can watch his films a number of times.  I think my technical knowledge of film adds to my appreciation but also, there's something there to learn from but at the same time my abstract mind wants to go deeper with ideas like what was in the briefcase than he does.  I loved that monologue about Superman in Kill Bill far more than any fight scenes with katanas.

 

But it is Aronofsky that appeals more to my abstract nature.  When sensates talk to me about his films they'll be like "that was crazy" or focus on how intense the final scenes of Requiem were or how wild the ending of Black Swan was.  They felt it but I'd be surprised if they wanted to talk too long about the theories and ideas embedded in the film.  It's almost a surprise to them when I might mention the power dynamics between the instructor and her, how the sex scene relates to her mother, about the edges of consciousness and how we swing far the other way, in reaction, or how ballerina shoes were perfect for setting up the scene and wondering if he had selected ballet for that purpose or realized that once he set into the story.  I'll never forget when I went to see The Fountain on my own and as the film closed, I was sitting awe-struck by how incredibly he wrapped up these themes of belonging to an eternal Universe, of how life is perpetual transformation, of relating this to an awakening, and all the symbols and powerful imagery that he built up through the film coming together in masterpiece β€” and as I was ready to clap, the audience broke out in laughter, and I grinned to myself as I recognized that they didn't know how else to react, so I didn't clap, and as I made my way out I overheard people asking each other what happened there.

 

Aronofsky doesn't seem to even try and cater to the majority of the population, sensates, but I like that he doesn't, because he goes all the way with his vision and there's no fluff for us intuitives. They see things happening and may realize the symbols or have them explained to them, but we intuitives are on a ride while he takes all those inter-connections happening in our head, pushes them to the next level, and twists them up, because that's where the bulk of the action is happening.

 

Likewise there are many films that sensates find thrilling but fail to captivate me because they don't do anything funky to my head.  Primer doesn't count β€” yes, putting together the sequence is super complex and there's issues of jealousy and betrayal and friendship β€” been there, done that β€” technically amazing and brilliant and science-candy, but the abstract is when you watch Moon and it makes you think about what makes you, you.  Far less complicated, yet far more profound for an intuitive. 

 

Memento, Primer, Brick, the Godfather trilogy, and so many more are examples of great films that appeal to everyone, intuitives and sensates alike.  Films that appeal mostly to just sensates are not just dumb action flicks, there are a slew of well done and intelligent S-candy, I don't keep a record of those...but they're there, and yet there also some films that are primarily N-candy.  Aronofsky is an example of someone who creates N-candy.  Coppola's recent films, now that he isn't aiming for a large audience anymore, also tend to be N-Candy, like Youth without Youth; films which have very little concrete material or interests and likely to bore even an intelligent sensate as being too abstract.



#15 Paladin-X

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:42 PM

I started a topic on this on Personality Cafe: http://personalityca...tp-vs-entp.html

 

I liked this response in particular:

 

I'll speak from my experience being a female ENTP friends with a female ESTP.

As an ENTP: more concerned about thinking of ideas or stuff that would be potentially fun
ESTP friend: more likely to push me to do said stuff or actually test her ideas. In general, she's more of a doer I'm more of a hypothetical doer.

ENTP: my humor is more derivative. So for example we were both volunteering together and I missed the first meeting and the second meeting everyone kept saying oh you're the missing girl! It reminded me of evolution and darwin and I said yes darwin you found me. I know it's lame but that's the most recent example I can think of.

ESTP: she's more (concretely?) funny. She's more prone to calling guys vaginas or being snarky about someone's appearance but it's still quite witty.

ENTP: I'm very unfit and lazy, I'd rather keep my figure by watching what I eat.
ESTP: she's very fit and goes to the gym regularly. She's also more of an active person than I am, she walks very fast and is more into physical activities. While I don't mind just sitting and talking/discussing things for hours.

ESTP thoughts of the ENTP: I presume she thinks I'm smart but I'm a slacker and I could apply myself more.
ENTP thoughts of ESTP: I think it's crazy that she does not know what she wants to do in the future. She's studying sciences and is quite clever but when I ask her what she sees herself doing she says she doesn't know and she hasnt given it much thought.

 


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#16 SpiralHacker

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 10:19 PM

Those are good examples.  I liked what this ESTP had to say as well:
 

ENTP's instigate deeper conversations than ESTP's usually. One of the few types that can make abstract topics interesting enough to get into. Most perspectives are just to damn boring so I evade the topics.

 
Some of the topics on our site like the ones on free will are likely to bore the hell out of an ESTP while it may be very important to an ENTP.  One of the things not helping with ESTPs mistyping themselves as ENTPs is this notion that ENTPs are smarter or that we think more or make more connections.  ESTPs make a lot of connections as well, and think all sorts of things, but you'll see that their ideas are more of the concrete world than the world of theory.
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#17 gentlechomp

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:37 PM

If you can't figure out if they're Ne or Se, you can also try to figure out if they use Si (ENTP) or Ni (ESTP).  Soo..maybe one difference could be ESTPs don't give a shit about their health.  ENTPs would be paranoid about their health in some way.


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#18 SpiralHacker

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:54 PM

I don't think that's an accurate way to identify influence of the inferior.  ESTPs care more likely to care about their appearances so that might motivate them to be healthy.  ENTPs can be very neglectful of their health when they have other interests.

 

Looking at the inferior, I think an easier way to tell is by seeing how the intuition is working in relation to abstract topics.  ENTP intuition is explorative and since it is coupled with their Ti, it's well reasoned, open-minded, and natural.  ESTPs in the abstract may have a sudden realization they feel very confident about, it may tie into their shadow/unconscious, and it won't be as discerning as their Se/Ti behavior.



#19 btliving4u

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  • LocationNormal, Ilinois

Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:15 AM

THis is so totally my boss. He certainly created chaos in the workplace.

 

 

 

 

 

Ok I have to get this off my chest. Entp's don't create chaos. We see it coming. Often warning of it. When our vision is dismissed we sit back and let it happen. Then we jump in and save the day while every one else is asking how did this happen? I think we get associated with causing it since we seem to always be there when it happens. I am not saying risk taking isn't in our nature but we are usually keenly aware of what the possible outcome maybe. We understand worst case scenarios, and sometimes that result just might be ok given the possible reward.

 

 

Steps off soap box,

 

Brad


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