[Double_V]

My husbands father died on Monday. When it became clear death was imminant on Sunday all his family was notified. Neither I or my kids have been in contact with my husbands sisters for the last 17 years so being at the hospital for many hours over two days gave time to observe and ponder.

They (his sisters) are feelers. They spent hours looking at their father loving him, holding his hand, supporting him, affirming it was okay for him go. One, an SFJ, "talked" him through the rough spots by talking softly of visualizing clouds, the area he grew up in, a childhood dog and pet pony. They radiated with love, took turns being close to him, and intermitnantly broke down with emotion. The room was like a convention center (too many people to die infront of, I thought) of his children and young adult grandchildren, almost exclusively female, a cheerleading squad of support.His second wife and her daughters were also there tho less so.

At about 9 A.M. there was the decision to let Hospice take over and not to give him anything other than pain meds and air. The doctor was called early in the day to get the increased dose... they waited ALL DAY for a response. They also waited ALL DAY for Hospice to take off all the liquid potasium, saline, etc. (nutition) being pumped into him.

NO ONE questioned/challenged these long delays. I found myself in a strange position having been through this before with elderly relatives. I find it to be more of an ST thing. The patients physical comfort should come first. They should be moved rougly every 2 hrs. If a position offers less pain it should be used. Mositure swabbing ones mouth, etc for there comfort is also part of making it easier on them.

If it had been my family I would have had the doctor on the phone myself and would've pushed the nurses to move him to relieve pain and also would've been all over Hospice to get a move on. I did do some things behind the scenes to push very quietly. I was apprehensive because it was not my place, he had 4 daughters, a wife, and two step daughters who come higher in that pack than me. And I know from past experience EVERYTHING I do is viewed as having some other meaning by his daughters.

So, I am struck by two camps having different styles . One was all about emotion, the other about the physical action of getting all the people, and medical services, where they needed to be.

Actions vs. emotions is what I pondering out of this. Some feel that saying words means love and the lack of them shows uncaring. Myself, I think action over words shows caring.

In the end we all wanted the same thing, for him to go rather than suffer but our choice of tools were different.

[John]

You know, the way you describe the scene, they were demonstrating their love and affection with more than just their words. Words can be very important, but I'd bet that most folks would agree that the actions are more important.

-J

[Aramis]

Double_V, on 04 March 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:

....
So, I am struck by two camps having different styles . One was all about emotion, the other about the physical action of getting all the people, and medical services, where they needed to be.

Actions vs. emotions is what I pondering out of this. Some feel that saying words means love and the lack of them shows uncaring. Myself, I think action over words shows caring.

In the end we all wanted the same thing, for him to go rather than suffer but our choice of tools were different.

I think in your situation, words and actions were used by the feelers. They were just actions that weren't "practical" but definitely needed. Your actions were definitely practical and showed your depth of concern and caring, in my opinion.

I'm not very good at showing how much I care through words in situations like this. Much better at taking action for the person's comfort, as well. I think if I tried verbalizing how much I felt, or to give comfort to the other person, it would come out garbled up. And I might actually insult someone without meaning to. The last thing I want to do is insult people when someone is about to pass away. Actions, to me, are self-explanatory and understandable. They convey feeling without words fucking up the meaning in other people's eyes because hell, not everyone is a smooth-operator in death scenarios.

[decided]

Double_V, on 05 March 2010 - 04:36 AM, said:

I know from past experience EVERYTHING I do is viewed as having some other meaning by his daughters.

This part stood out to me.

You were trapped between wanting your father-in-law to receive the best medical attention, right to the end, while not wanting to accidentally cause more upset during an emotionally-charged situation.

They possibly didn't know about those procedures you mentioned, so wouldn't think to follow-up with the hospital staff...?

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your father-in-law, and I'm glad you did the little bit that you could.

[Northern Bushape]

A great example of thinker compassion versus feeler compassion. Two halves of a whole.

Sorry to hear about your pa in law, sorry to hear he died after a long stay in a hospital.

Not the way I want to go. If I am in that situation, I will crawl out of the hospital, ninja style, grab a cab, get driven straight to the forest, exit,pay the cabbie, crawl deep into the forest, where I may be eaten by the wild things, then I will leave this life.

No way I am going to suffer from bedsores prior to death......no way, no how

[Double_V]

decided, on 05 March 2010 - 09:04 AM, said:

This part stood out to me.

You were trapped between wanting your father-in-law to receive the best medical attention, right to the end, while not wanting to accidentally cause more upset during an emotionally-charged situation.

They possibly didn't know about those procedures you mentioned, so wouldn't think to follow-up with the hospital staff...?

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your father-in-law, and I'm glad you did the little bit that you could.

Thank you. Exactly. You nailed what was bothering me about the situation. Not only accidently causing upset but possible irrational upset on their part. A well intentioned, effective, useful ENTP can be viewed as insensitive by others.

And no, they did not seem aware of several things that would help him. The Hospice only came about because of his step daughter, a T who was only periodically able to be there. If she had been able to be there more I would have been willing to be more involved.

More on this thread later...I still have to ponder a bit.

[CheekyMuffin]

An excerpt from "Out of Africa" by Karen Blixen:

The Kikuyu, when left to themselves, do not bury their dead, but leave them above ground for the hyenas and vultures to deal with. The custom had always appealed to me, I thought that it would be a pleasant thing to be laid out to the sun and the stars, and to be so promptly, neatly, and openly picked and cleansed; to be made one with Nature and become a common component of a landscape. At the time when we had the Spanish flu on the farm, I heard the hyenas round the shambas all night, and often, after those days, I would find a brown smooth skull in the long grass of the forest, like a nut dropped down under a tree, or on the plain. But the practice does not go with the conditions of civilized life. The government had taken much trouble to make the Kikuyu change their ways, and to teach them to lay their dead in the ground, but they still did not like the idea at all.

[Double_V]

CheekyMuffin, on 05 March 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

An excerpt from "Out of Africa" by Karen Blixen:

The Kikuyu, when left to themselves, do not bury their dead, but leave them above ground for the hyenas and vultures to deal with. The custom had always appealed to me, I thought that it would be a pleasant thing to be laid out to the sun and the stars, and to be so promptly, neatly, and openly picked and cleansed; to be made one with Nature and become a common component of a landscape. At the time when we had the Spanish flu on the farm, I heard the hyenas round the shambas all night, and often, after those days, I would find a brown smooth skull in the long grass of the forest, like a nut dropped down under a tree, or on the plain. But the practice does not go with the conditions of civilized life. The government had taken much trouble to make the Kikuyu change their ways, and to teach them to lay their dead in the ground, but they still did not like the idea at all.

Beautiful post.

My son stopped by to find out what the arrangements would be. I told him of the plans to have a church service in a town 10 miles from where FIL lived. "Why?" he said then added his grandfather did not want that, rather bothered by this departure from his grandfathers wishes. I know why. One of his daughters has found God with her third marriage and that is her church. He wanted a Life Celebration, a party at his home. That it will happen in a few months but I know not all his family will be there.... so it will not be what he wanted.

Funerals are really for the living. Alot of them are unnatural.

I am mentally preparing to attend at a church. This is where being an ENTP comes in handy. I will look the part flawlessly. Why? Because I really did like FIL and my absence would stressful to him if he'd known (and also to support Harry).

[Northern Bushape]

CheekyMuffin, on 05 March 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

An excerpt from "Out of Africa" by Karen Blixen:

The Kikuyu, when left to themselves, do not bury their dead, but leave them above ground for the hyenas and vultures to deal with. The custom had always appealed to me, I thought that it would be a pleasant thing to be laid out to the sun and the stars, and to be so promptly, neatly, and openly picked and cleansed; to be made one with Nature and become a common component of a landscape. At the time when we had the Spanish flu on the farm, I heard the hyenas round the shambas all night, and often, after those days, I would find a brown smooth skull in the long grass of the forest, like a nut dropped down under a tree, or on the plain. But the practice does not go with the conditions of civilized life. The government had taken much trouble to make the Kikuyu change their ways, and to teach them to lay their dead in the ground, but they still did not like the idea at all.

Burying our dead was the original sin. A fuck you to the community of other animals and plants. We can use you to nourish us, but you can't find nourishment in us, anymore.

We stopped participating in the circle of life, in the body of Nature.

We stopped playing fair.

Ever since then, things have been going downhill for us and Nature.

Kinda like we were a cell in the body of Nature, that broke from and turned on the body and the body responded by turning on us.

And it all started because some Feeler became so attached, that they stopped playing fair and they got some Thinker to come up with a solution to their emotional wants.

End result, wasted meat, rotting in the ground

So goes my theory

[whs]

Northern Bushape, on 06 March 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Burying our dead was the original sin. A fuck you to the community of other animals and plants. We can use you to nourish us, but you can't find nourishment in us, anymore.

Are you suggesting that burying a body does not return the elements and materials back to the ground? Where do you think they go?

[Northern Bushape]

whs, on 07 March 2010 - 10:40 AM, said:

Are you suggesting that burying a body does not return the elements and materials back to the ground? Where do you think they go?

Our body's are not intended to go directly into the ground, but instead the elements and materials are meant to be returned to our animal and plant brethren, staying in a loop, passed from animal to animal,then poo to plant, then plant to animal, then animal to animal, till all useful elements and materials, that we borrowed from them in the first place, have run their course.

We do not own the materials and elements of our body, they are borrowed and must be returned to the communal pool, one way or another.

Just a real prickish attitude to sabotage the process and not to return the materials borrowed

[whs]

Northern Bushape, on 07 March 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

Our body's are not intended to go directly into the ground, but instead the elements and materials are meant to be returned to our animal and plant brethren,...

Are you high? Where the hell to you think the elements and materials go after decomposition if not into the soil and then into the plants?

[whs]

V, sorry you have to deal with death. Glad you could make a contribution you could feel good about.

-H

[Northern Bushape]

whs, on 07 March 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Are you high? Where the hell to you think the elements and materials go after decomposition if not into the soil and then into the plants?

Listen stupid, an important step is missed.

Capiche'?

Baby carnivorous go hungry and Wild Thing populations are limited every time we bury a body. It's like taking money out of an economy.

And don't even start me on those cremation fucks, they are gonna regret that shit on the Other Side.

[whs]

Northern Bushape, on 07 March 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

Listen stupid, an important step is missed.

Capiche'?

Baby carnivorous go hungry and Wild Thing populations are limited every time we bury a body. It's like taking money out of an economy.

And don't even start me on those cremation fucks, they are gonna regret that shit on the Other Side.

That right there is comedy gold! Like Me, you are funniest when you're high and making no sense. Shine on you crazy diamond!

[ShashiJapan4]

Northern Bushape, on 07 March 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

Listen stupid, an important step is missed.

Capiche'?

Baby carnivorous go hungry and Wild Thing populations are limited every time we bury a body. It's like taking money out of an economy.

And don't even start me on those cremation fucks, they are gonna regret that shit on the Other Side.

... You somehow don't think you're eaten by maggots or other creepy crawlies? Or even by the most simple, one-celled organisms?
Or that we're EVERNNTUALLY broken down to nothing?

And don't the ashes fall to the earth?
Just because it's scattered doesn't mean all the pieces aren't there.

Ashes to ashes.
Dust to dust.

[CheekyMuffin]

ShashiJapan4, on 08 March 2010 - 03:34 PM, said:

Maggots. Creepy Crawlies.

I think African folks are hardcore Se and fiercely realistic/utilitarian (10 fold more so than a white Se such as ESTP or ESFP but a white person). Giving your body to the creatures at death would seem fitting and utilitarian in their mindset I think.

[HughNibley]

Northern Bushape, on 07 March 2010 - 05:14 PM, said:

And don't even start me on those cremation fucks, they are gonna regret that shit on the Other Side.

I'm going to be buried, Viking style.

If you have an issue with that, I'll met you with a battle ax on the other side.

[Double_V]

Seems most folks don't know cremation does not destroy the skeletal remains. It takes a special pulvarization machine to reduce the remaining skeleton to "ashes". Ater that process the "ashes" are swept into a container of choice, a simple plastic bag or a marble urn.

In suburban areas leaving the bodies to decay isn't practical due to volume, and contagious diseases.

When my father died I was pretty suprised at two things. 1. He was the 510th person to be autopsied since the first of that month in the City of Chicago, the actual death toll for the city was over 3000 people in just ten days . And 2. His cremated "ashes" still weighed roughly 9 lbs (I was told that some people remains are heavier due to bone stucture being larger and/or denser, average male being 6 lbs and female 4 lbs). I have to admit I was unprepared for that as I picked him up as I always had heard "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" which all sounds light and breezy. I guess I forgot dust can be substantive.

I also had some concern concern about the "Other Side" but after learning the skeleton remains mostly in tact I let that one go. Which leads me to the idea of organ donation.If we would be in trouble with the "Other Side" for destroying our carcus would this not also be the same in the case of organ donation?

Anyone see Wanda Sykes Ima Be Me routine where she imitates God asking where somebodies eyeballs went? God then shakes his head and says "Lokk at this pretty stuff I made for you to look at and you with no eyeballs". *tsk, tsk* "We're you ut them at?" in disgust over people showing up to heaven minus their 'parts'.

Meanwhile we've had quite a few relatives cremated. A cousin called one day to say her house had burnt down and they'd gotten out just in time. After thinking about it for ten minutes I called her back and asked the dreaded question..."Umm, What happened to Auntie X & Y's ashes?".

She had gotten them out just in time.

I can just imagine ... "Well we did have Auntie X & Y's ashes - until they were lost them in the fire".

[Double_V]

HughNibley, on 12 March 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

I'm going to be buried, Viking style.

If you have an issue with that, I'll met you with a battle ax on the other side.

I'm imagining you in just your skeleton tho, sort of Pirates of the Caribbean style, only colder, to capture the Viking effect. And maybe a hat with horns or something..